Vojna v Ukrajini 2

damirj

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9. maj 2012
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To samo kaže, da sovražiš nek narod po nareku neke politike in ne po dejanjih.

npr. Nemci so pobili par miljonov ukrajincev, pa so ukrajinci lahko z njimi prijatelji. Zaradi Holodomora, ki se je zgodil še desetletje prej in se ga nihče več ne spomni in v katerem je umrlo vsaj še toliko rusov in kazahstancev, in ga je recimo zakrivil Gruzijec, pa sovražijo Ruse.
Al pa Poljaki, Nemci in Ukrajinci so pobili miljone poljakov, Ukrajinci so jim ukradli Galicijo.. Poljaki so prijatelji tako z Nemci kot z Ukrajinci, sovražijo pa Ruse, s katerimi nimajo nič.

En kolega, manj izobražen, je rekel, da sovraži Ruse, sem vprašal zakaj, pa je odgovoril da zaradi Černobila, da se spomni, kako so takrat lagali. Ko sem povedal da je Černobil v Ukrajini se ni dal zmest. Prvotni razlog, zakaj je sovražil Ruse je postal nepomemben, ni potem iz istega razloga zasovražil ukrajince, potem je iskal drug razlog, kjer so rusi kaj zahebali, se je spomnil Brežnjeva, ki mu ni bil simpatičen in njegovega vdora v Čehoslovaško, Khmm, sem ga spomnil da je bil Brežnjev ukrajinec, vojska pa prišla iz Ukrajine, no potem tudi to ni bilo več nič važno. Kaj drugega se ni spomnil, še vedno pa ljubi ukrajino in sovraži ruse, In če bi ga danes vprašal, bi spet rekel da zaradi černobila in brežnjeva.

V černobilski JE so bili vsi, ali pa večina no, na vodilnih položajih rusi. Kar se tiče prvega stavka pa, dejanja so pokazala več, dejanje je napad JLA na Slovenijo. Po ukazu politike sigurno, ampak branil se pa tega ukaza ni nihče... dovolj zgovorno.
 

mistique

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16. jun 2009
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Emona / Carnium
Saj tudi mi smo imeli polna usta prijateljstva s srbi in hrvat, zdaj jih pa videt ne moremo..
Sem vedel, da bodo na to izjavo kot muhe na drek naflikali srbohrvatarji, čefurji ipd in njihovi simpatizerji.. Nič presenetljivega, se vidi že na 100km kdo kam spada :)
Kot prvo, lepo, da pišeš v prvi osebi ednine. Me pa zanima, zakaj uporabljaš množino?

Sem šel do Dr.Đipitija po 2nd opinion in pravi:

When a person projects their personal opinions and beliefs as though they are widely accepted or practiced, even when this isn't the case, it can point to several psychological tendencies or patterns. Below are a few possible psychological interpretations or diagnoses for this behavior, though it’s important to note that these are general possibilities and would require professional evaluation to make any specific diagnosis:

### 1. **Cognitive Bias: False Consensus Effect**
- **Explanation**: The **false consensus effect** is a cognitive bias in which people overestimate the extent to which their opinions, beliefs, or behaviors are shared by others. This bias causes individuals to believe that their views are more common than they actually are.
- **Why It Happens**: It can stem from surrounding oneself with like-minded people or a strong identification with certain beliefs, leading to the assumption that "everyone" feels the same way.
- **Example**: Someone might say, “We all agree that this is the best approach,” even when there’s little evidence that others share that view.

**Psychological Traits**:
- Lack of exposure to diverse perspectives.
- Desire for social validation.
- Limited self-awareness or critical reflection on one's social environment.

---

### 2. **Narcissistic Traits**
- **Explanation**: In individuals with **narcissistic traits** or **narcissistic personality disorder**, there is often a tendency to project their personal views as universal truths. They might expect their opinions to be accepted and respected without question and may believe that others naturally agree with them.
- **Why It Happens**: Narcissists often have an inflated sense of self-importance, and by assuming their beliefs are widely held, they reinforce their self-image of being right or superior.
- **Example**: "Everyone knows that my way is the best," even though their view may not be shared by others.

**Psychological Traits**:
- A grandiose sense of self-importance.
- Difficulty recognizing or accepting differing viewpoints.
- A need for admiration and validation from others.

---

### 3. **Social Manipulation or Gaslighting**
- **Explanation**: In some cases, projecting personal opinions as widely accepted can be a form of **manipulation** or **gaslighting**. The person might deliberately try to create the illusion of consensus in order to influence or control others’ perceptions and behavior.
- **Why It Happens**: This can be a strategy to assert dominance, control a narrative, or undermine the confidence of others by making them feel like they are the minority or "wrong" for disagreeing.
- **Example**: "Everyone thinks this is how it should be done," when, in reality, the speaker is exaggerating or inventing consensus to gain influence.

**Psychological Traits**:
- Desire for control or manipulation.
- Willingness to distort reality to maintain power.
- Lack of regard for others' autonomy or views.

---

### 4. **Low Self-Esteem or Insecurity**
- **Explanation**: Paradoxically, some individuals with **low self-esteem** or **insecurity** may project their personal beliefs as widely accepted because they are seeking validation. By presenting their beliefs as part of the "norm," they avoid having to defend them or face the discomfort of standing out.
- **Why It Happens**: Insecure individuals may feel safer aligning their views with an imagined majority, as it gives them a sense of belonging and reduces the risk of feeling isolated or criticized.
- **Example**: "Everyone thinks this is the right thing to do," when the speaker is really anxious about being alone in their belief and is projecting a false sense of consensus for reassurance.

**Psychological Traits**:
- Fear of rejection or criticism.
- Desire for social acceptance.
- Difficulty handling disagreement or standing out.

---

### 5. **Delusional Disorder (Grandiose Type)**
- **Explanation**: In more extreme cases, projecting one’s beliefs as universally accepted may be a symptom of a **delusional disorder**, specifically of the **grandiose type**. This disorder is characterized by an inflated sense of one's own worth, power, knowledge, or identity, and the belief that others share or must recognize this.
- **Why It Happens**: The individual genuinely believes that their views or abilities are superior or that others secretly agree with them, even when evidence shows otherwise. This goes beyond simple overconfidence and enters the realm of fixed, false beliefs.
- **Example**: "Everyone knows I am the most skilled person for this job," even when no one else acknowledges this belief.

**Psychological Traits**:
- Persistent delusions of grandeur.
- Fixed false beliefs that are resistant to contrary evidence.
- Difficulty perceiving reality as it is.

---

### 6. **Groupthink or Echo Chamber Mentality**
- **Explanation**: People who surround themselves with similar viewpoints, such as in an echo chamber or tight-knit group, might mistakenly believe that their opinions are widely accepted outside the group as well. This could happen without malicious intent but rather because their perspective is not challenged.
- **Why It Happens**: When someone is constantly validated within a closed group, they may project that experience outward, assuming the general public or larger group agrees.
- **Example**: "Everyone supports this idea," when it's only widely accepted within a small or insular community.

**Psychological Traits**:
- Lack of exposure to diverse or opposing viewpoints.
- Over-reliance on in-group validation.
- Difficulty distinguishing between group norms and societal norms.

---

### Conclusion:
When a person projects their personal beliefs as universally accepted, it could stem from a variety of psychological mechanisms such as cognitive bias (false consensus), narcissism, manipulation, insecurity, or even delusional thinking. The motivation behind this behavior can vary greatly, from an innocent overestimation of consensus to deeper issues such as a need for control or validation.

Understanding the context in which this behavior occurs, as well as the person's broader psychological patterns, is essential to fully grasping the root cause. It’s important to approach such behavior with care and avoid jumping to conclusions without a full understanding of the individual's mindset and circumstances.
 
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damirj

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Kot prvo, lepo, da pišeš v prvi osebi ednine. Me pa zanima, zakaj uporabljaš množino?

Sem šel do Dr.Đipitija po 2nd opinion in pravi:

When a person projects their personal opinions and beliefs as though they are widely accepted or practiced, even when this isn't the case, it can point to several psychological tendencies or patterns. Below are a few possible psychological interpretations or diagnoses for this behavior, though it’s important to note that these are general possibilities and would require professional evaluation to make any specific diagnosis:

### 1. **Cognitive Bias: False Consensus Effect**
- **Explanation**: The **false consensus effect** is a cognitive bias in which people overestimate the extent to which their opinions, beliefs, or behaviors are shared by others. This bias causes individuals to believe that their views are more common than they actually are.
- **Why It Happens**: It can stem from surrounding oneself with like-minded people or a strong identification with certain beliefs, leading to the assumption that "everyone" feels the same way.
- **Example**: Someone might say, “We all agree that this is the best approach,” even when there’s little evidence that others share that view.

**Psychological Traits**:
- Lack of exposure to diverse perspectives.
- Desire for social validation.
- Limited self-awareness or critical reflection on one's social environment.

---

### 2. **Narcissistic Traits**
- **Explanation**: In individuals with **narcissistic traits** or **narcissistic personality disorder**, there is often a tendency to project their personal views as universal truths. They might expect their opinions to be accepted and respected without question and may believe that others naturally agree with them.
- **Why It Happens**: Narcissists often have an inflated sense of self-importance, and by assuming their beliefs are widely held, they reinforce their self-image of being right or superior.
- **Example**: "Everyone knows that my way is the best," even though their view may not be shared by others.

**Psychological Traits**:
- A grandiose sense of self-importance.
- Difficulty recognizing or accepting differing viewpoints.
- A need for admiration and validation from others.

---

### 3. **Social Manipulation or Gaslighting**
- **Explanation**: In some cases, projecting personal opinions as widely accepted can be a form of **manipulation** or **gaslighting**. The person might deliberately try to create the illusion of consensus in order to influence or control others’ perceptions and behavior.
- **Why It Happens**: This can be a strategy to assert dominance, control a narrative, or undermine the confidence of others by making them feel like they are the minority or "wrong" for disagreeing.
- **Example**: "Everyone thinks this is how it should be done," when, in reality, the speaker is exaggerating or inventing consensus to gain influence.

**Psychological Traits**:
- Desire for control or manipulation.
- Willingness to distort reality to maintain power.
- Lack of regard for others' autonomy or views.

---

### 4. **Low Self-Esteem or Insecurity**
- **Explanation**: Paradoxically, some individuals with **low self-esteem** or **insecurity** may project their personal beliefs as widely accepted because they are seeking validation. By presenting their beliefs as part of the "norm," they avoid having to defend them or face the discomfort of standing out.
- **Why It Happens**: Insecure individuals may feel safer aligning their views with an imagined majority, as it gives them a sense of belonging and reduces the risk of feeling isolated or criticized.
- **Example**: "Everyone thinks this is the right thing to do," when the speaker is really anxious about being alone in their belief and is projecting a false sense of consensus for reassurance.

**Psychological Traits**:
- Fear of rejection or criticism.
- Desire for social acceptance.
- Difficulty handling disagreement or standing out.

---

### 5. **Delusional Disorder (Grandiose Type)**
- **Explanation**: In more extreme cases, projecting one’s beliefs as universally accepted may be a symptom of a **delusional disorder**, specifically of the **grandiose type**. This disorder is characterized by an inflated sense of one's own worth, power, knowledge, or identity, and the belief that others share or must recognize this.
- **Why It Happens**: The individual genuinely believes that their views or abilities are superior or that others secretly agree with them, even when evidence shows otherwise. This goes beyond simple overconfidence and enters the realm of fixed, false beliefs.
- **Example**: "Everyone knows I am the most skilled person for this job," even when no one else acknowledges this belief.

**Psychological Traits**:
- Persistent delusions of grandeur.
- Fixed false beliefs that are resistant to contrary evidence.
- Difficulty perceiving reality as it is.

---

### 6. **Groupthink or Echo Chamber Mentality**
- **Explanation**: People who surround themselves with similar viewpoints, such as in an echo chamber or tight-knit group, might mistakenly believe that their opinions are widely accepted outside the group as well. This could happen without malicious intent but rather because their perspective is not challenged.
- **Why It Happens**: When someone is constantly validated within a closed group, they may project that experience outward, assuming the general public or larger group agrees.
- **Example**: "Everyone supports this idea," when it's only widely accepted within a small or insular community.

**Psychological Traits**:
- Lack of exposure to diverse or opposing viewpoints.
- Over-reliance on in-group validation.
- Difficulty distinguishing between group norms and societal norms.

---

### Conclusion:
When a person projects their personal beliefs as universally accepted, it could stem from a variety of psychological mechanisms such as cognitive bias (false consensus), narcissism, manipulation, insecurity, or even delusional thinking. The motivation behind this behavior can vary greatly, from an innocent overestimation of consensus to deeper issues such as a need for control or validation.

Understanding the context in which this behavior occurs, as well as the person's broader psychological patterns, is essential to fully grasping the root cause. It’s important to approach such behavior with care and avoid jumping to conclusions without a full understanding of the individual's mindset and circumstances.

Ker si že prvi stavek narobe napisal in interpretiral, je tudi vsakršno nadaljne analiziranje s pomočjo čatdžipitija navrglo napačne intepretacije. Ampak razumem tvojo frustracijo in glede na napisano, se sam zagotovo najdeš v (vsaj) eni točki od 1 do 6. Jaz se namreč ne, lahko pa se najdem v točki 7, ki tu manjka, ampak imamo za to odprto drugo temo oziroma celo dve.
 
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V černobilski JE so bili vsi, ali pa večina no, na vodilnih položajih rusi. Kar se tiče prvega stavka pa, dejanja so pokazala več, dejanje je napad JLA na Slovenijo. Po ukazu politike sigurno, ampak branil se pa tega ukaza ni nihče... dovolj zgovorno.

Kolega to smo mu že nekajkrat napisali, ampak Černobil kot tak je bil lociran v UA in to je za njega tata i mata. To je vse kar rabi vedet. Vsakršnakoli povezava z Rusijo, takratno Sovjetsko zvezo je za njega brezpredmetna. Ne bo kupil tega da je bla komanda v Moskvi, pa si lahk jajca daš odrezat
 
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Koliko držav in katere pa ima slabe izkušnje z Rusi, in za primerjavo koliko z Nemci ?

Nemci so v 2, sv vojni pobili 5-7-miljonov Ukrajincev, koliko pa Rusi?

Al pa poljaki a ni zanimivo, koliko miljonov Poljakov so pobili Ukrajinci, pa koliko Nemci, pa so lahko najboljši frendi, z Rusi pa ne morejo bit. Najbrž ker so napumpani od politike - po potrebi. Ker do pred 30 leti so imeli pa še polna usta prijateljstva z bratsko sovjetsko zvezo.
z RU trenutno Poljska, Češka, Slovaška pa Finska tud nekako jim ne zaupa več, Isto Švedska. 5 držav, ki so praktično njene sosede, potem maš UA, Belorusija tud ni prav v celoti za njih, Mongolija se tudi počasi nagiba stran od njih.......

Z Nemci slabe izkušnje v letih 41-45, kasneje so bili bolj prizemljeni. So pa v tistih nekaj letih naredili nepopravljivo in nepredstavljivo škodo. Z RU slabe izkušnje so pa praktično stalnica. Ne v tak obliki kot NEM, ampak manjši obseg pa bolj pritlehno
 
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damirj

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Keri pa :sprasujemse:
Dej me hitro popredalčkej

Očitno si se že sam, ker te tako skrbi mnenje drugih :)

Naj te potolažim, nacionalistično zavedanje posameznika je popolnoma normalno in v če ostaja v mejah normalnega, je kvečjemu koristno tako za družbo, kot državo v kateri je ta družba. Problem (lahko) nastane, ko se ta družba nahaja v drugi državi. Ampak lahko debatirava o tem dalje v drugih dveh temah, ki so temu namenjene.
 

mirsi

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rakete dolgega dosega za uporabo ciljev znotraj RU to je recimo en tak primer. Naivno?
Ukrajinci že sedaj uporabljajo rakete dolgega dosega za cilje globoko v Rusiji, pa saj ste limali linke o zadetkih 2000km globoko v Rusiji.
Tudi EU je izglasovala dovoljenje za napade na cilje v Rusiji (naši poslanci so bili ZA).

Tako da za ciljanje ciljev globoko v Rusiji ne rabi bit Ukrajina v Natu.

Vprašal sem, kaj bi bilo drugače, če bi Ukrajino sprejeli jutri v Nato ??????
 
Ukrajinci že sedaj uporabljajo rakete dolgega dosega za cilje globoko v Rusiji, pa saj ste limali linke o zadetkih 2000km globoko v Rusiji.
Tudi EU je izglasovala dovoljenje za napade na cilje v Rusiji (naši poslanci so bili ZA).

Tako da za ciljanje ciljev globoko v Rusiji ne rabi bit Ukrajina v Natu.

Vprašal sem, kaj bi bilo drugače, če bi Ukrajino sprejeli jutri v Nato ??????
vprašal si in sm ti napisal. Rakete se uporabljajo kot se, torej v manjšem obsegu (količinsko jih ni ne vem koliko) pa še to ne ravno globoko v notranjosti. Torej že tu lažeš. Tu imaš potem še jadralne bombe, tudi te bi lahko NATO uporabil

Dodaj še boljši nabor orožja, ne pa da se pogaja kaj bo tja šlo in kaj ne

Poleg tega imaš v tem primeru (če bi bila članica NATA) na voljo 32 držav, ki bi tja napotile svoje vojake. tega trenutno ni. Bo šlo?
 
To bi lahko že sedaj, če bi res želeli. Ne rabijo NATO izgovora.
lahko bi, samo pravno zgleda bolj grdo (to kar si napisal) kot če se UA pridruži in jo potem NATO brani. Poleg tega imaš države ki so članice NATA in so bolj na ti z RU. Tu bi utegnil biti tudi kak problem, oz bi bile primorane pogoltniti svoje tovariške naveze in prestopiti na njim nevšečno stran
 

mirsi

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z RU trenutno Poljska, Češka, Slovaška pa Finska tud nekako jim ne zaupa več, Isto Švedska. 5 držav, ki so praktično njene sosede, potem maš UA, Belorusija tud ni prav v celoti za njih, Mongolija se tudi počasi nagiba stran od njih.......

Z Nemci slabe izkušnje v letih 41-45, kasneje so bili bolj prizemljeni. So pa v tistih nekaj letih naredili nepopravljivo in nepredstavljivo škodo. Z RU slabe izkušnje so pa praktično stalnica. Ne v tak obliki kot NEM, ampak manjši obseg pa bolj pritlehno
Rusi so tudi za nas bili po letu 1945 bratski narod, leta 1947 so postali sovražniki (informbiro), 1963 so spet postali prijatelji - vse čez noč. Tako to gre, vse po nareku politike.

A za Nemce smo 1945 vse pozabili, nobenih okupacij, miljoni žrtev, taborišča - smo prijatelji - a sovjetom in Gruzijcu (to danes rečemo Rusi), pa ne moremo pozabit za 100 let nazaj v drugem režimu in drugi državi. Pri čemer bomo zamolčali, kdi je tisto žito pojedel, da so ukrajinci, rusi, kazahstanci.. ostali lačni. Oz. bomo zamolčali, kdo je takrat pritisnil na Stalina, da je moral izvozit žito, čeprav ga sami zase niso imeli dovolj.

Kdaj so bili pa Banderovci prizemljeni, da so Poljaki lahko prijatelji z Ukrajinci, čeprav so ti pobili nekaj miljonov Poljakov, pa še Galicijo so jim ukradli ?????

Bi rekel da je to vse politika splanirala. Se spomnijo da moramo od danes sovražit ruse, pa beremo članke o Holodomoru, protirusko propagando.......ljudje pa na to foro primejo in začnejo sovražiti.
 
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jest5

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lahko bi, samo pravno zgleda bolj grdo (to kar si napisal) kot če se UA pridruži in jo potem NATO brani. Poleg tega imaš države ki so članice NATA in so bolj na ti z RU. Tu bi utegnil biti tudi kak problem, oz bi bile primorane pogoltniti svoje tovariške naveze in prestopiti na njim nevšečno stran
Lej, okoliške države ne bodo čisto nič bolj zagrete za vojno, kot so sedaj. Vsak se je bo izogibal, kolikor se bo le lahko. Morebitna Ukrajinska pridružitev ne bo nobena magična tabletka, zaradi katere bi potem vsi happy tja pošiljali vojsko in vstopali v konflikt.
 
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damirj

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Rusi so tudi za nas bili po letu 1945 bratski narod, leta 1947 so postali sovražniki (informbiro), 1963 so spet postali prijatelji - vse čez noč. Tako to gre, vse po nareku politike.

A za Nemce smo 1945 vse pozabili, nobenih okupacij, miljoni žrtev, taborišča - smo prijatelji - a sovjetom in Gruzijcu (to danes rečemo Rusi), pa ne moremo pozabit za 100 let nazaj v drugem režimu in drugi državi. Pri čemer bomo zamolčali, kdi je tisto žito pojedel, da so ukrajinci, rusi, kazahstanci.. ostali lačni. Oz. bomo zamolčali, kdo je takrat pritisnil na Stalina, da je moral izvozit žito, čeprav ga sami zase niso imeli dovolj.

Kdaj so bili pa Banderovci prizemljeni, da so Poljaki lahko prijatelji z Ukrajinci, čeprav so ti pobili nekaj miljonov Poljakov, pa še Galicijo so jim ukradli ?????

Bi rekel da je to vse politika splanirala. Se spomnijo da moramo od danes sovražit ruse, pa beremo članke o Holodomoru, protirusko propagando.......ljudje pa na to foro primejo in začnejo sovražiti.

No ravno čez noč se to ni zgodilo. Kar se je zgodilo, je pa tudi nastalo na podlagi nekih dogovorv, izjav, dokumentov, zagotovil itd.. Hočem rečt, ni se zgodilo kar čez noč in to samo od sebe. Tudi če politika tako reče in je veliko ljudi ovc in vzame to za sveto, je nekaj ljudi imelo s tem težave. In še dandanes imaš ljudi, ki se spominjajo deportacij v taborišča in ker jim verjetno ni bilo lepo, saj niso bili na počitnicah, jim verjetno nek splošen pogled na nemce ni pozitiven. Ali pač, kdo ve... Ugibam, da ne kar sovraži vse povprek vse nemce na splošno. Če pa jih, mu ne moreš zameriti.
 
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mirsi

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Poleg tega imaš v tem primeru (če bi bila članica NATA) na voljo 32 držav, ki bi tja napotile svoje vojake. tega trenutno ni. Bo šlo?
No dolgo je trajalo, da smo prišli do prve razlike, kaj bi bilo drugače, če bi Ukrajino sprejeli v Nato.

Torej Nato države bi tja napotile svoje vojake, ki bi ciljale na ruse in tudi na cilje globoko v Rusiji. Torej bi Nato države odkrito vstopile v vojno z Rusijo. Je tako?
 
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damirj

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No dolgo je trajalo, da smo prišli do prve razlike, kaj bi bilo drugače, če bi Ukrajino sprejeli v Nato.

Torej Nato države bi tja napotile svoje vojake, ki bi ciljale na ruse in tudi na cilje globoko v Rusiji. Torej bi Nato države odkrito vstopile v vojno z Rusijo. Je tako?

Zato obstoji člen, da se v NATO ne pridružuje članic, ki so trenutno v vojni. To bi ta famozni 5. člen zlorabljalo za brezveze in v nasprotju z osnovnim načelom NATO. In ta ni napadanje, temveč obramba članic. Se pa izgleda ta fama kako bo Ukrajina kar postala članica NATO na veliko širi, spet kakšna ruska fora rusofilov? Kako pa se vsaka država odloči pomagati Ukrajini sedaj, ko ni članica NATO, zavisi od vsake države posebej, ni to odločitev NATO.
 
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mirsi

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Lej, okoliške države ne bodo čisto nič bolj zagrete za vojno, kot so sedaj. Vsak se je bo izogibal, kolikor se bo le lahko. Morebitna Ukrajinska pridružitev ne bo nobena magična tabletka, zaradi katere bi potem vsi happy tja pošiljali vojsko in vstopali v konflikt.
Okoliške države ne bodo čisto nič bolj zagrete za vojno kot so sedaj. Imaš tudi v teh okoliških državah in tudi na tem forumu warmongerje, ki bi z veseljem pošiljali sodržavljane v ukrajinske jarke. In tudi podkupljene politike, ki delajo po nareku iz amerike. No pa saj tu poglej, kako se zgražate nad Ukrajinci pri nas, (ki niso happy da bi se borili), in najraje bi jih poslali nazaj v ukrajinske jarke. Nočeš > moraš
Okoliške države, ki so v Natu, nimajo tam nobene besede odločanja. To je jasno. In vojaku so tudi zavezani ukazom, ni v vojski demokracije pa kaj kdo želi. Tudi tisti, ki jih v UA ujamejo na ulicah nisi happy, pa vseeno na koncu pristanejo v jarku na fronti, želeli ali ne.

V Natu ima glavno besedo ZDA, in če bodo oni odločili, da gre slovenska vojska v Ukrajino bo tudi šla. Saj pred časom se je že veliko govorilo, da bi tja šli francozi, pa britanci, pa Poljaki... Saj žaba se počasi kuha, najprej bi šli samo v Galicijo, pa belorusko mejo - tam kjer je mir, pa bo javnost navdušena. da bi tamkajšnji ukrajinci lahko šli na fronto - potem pa naprej. Najprej so rabili samo čelade.
 

mirsi

Predator
4. jun 2014
8.263
-2.339
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Zato obstoji člen, da se v NATO ne pridružuje članic, ki so trenutno v vojni. To bi ta famozni 5. člen zlorabljalo za brezveze in v nasprotju z osnovnim načelom NATO. In ta ni napadanje, temveč obramba članic.
Ali je bil napad na Jugoslavijo mimo odločitve OZN v skladu z osnovnimi načeli Nato? Katero članico Nata so pa branili v Beogradu ?